Edmunds Answers

Voted Best Answer

  • avatar knowledgepower 05/13/11 6:54 pm PST

    There's not much room other than invoice on the HHR that you may think. If there is a rebate take that with invoice and run with it. There's no huge dealer holdback and mega incentives on this vehicle other than rebate. Asking for too much on an invoice deal can get you no deal. I've dealt with many customers other than fleet buyers who thought that there was all this money under invoice other than the rebate and ended up with no deal. Holdback may be a few hundred dollars and not worth the negotiation. These statements are not a contradiction of anything posted just a little advice from one who's been there. Like the Gambler says you have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. If you are offered invoice and rebate fold don't hold and take the deal. You're being offered the cake just don't eat it intil you've left the dealership.

Answers

  • isellhondas 05/13/11 5:17 pm PST

    As poor sellers as HHR's are, there could be huge factory to dealer incentive money on them.

    In my experience, sometimes the TMV values are doable and other times they are not. I've never been able to figure out how these numbers are arrived at.

    If an HHR is what you want, make that offer and see what happens!

  • Stever@Edmunds 05/13/11 5:34 pm PST

    Dealers can sell for below invoice because they get Dealer Holdback, spiffs, bonuses, rebates, and other incentives to move cars off the lot.

    There's no reason to offer invoice if TMV is lower; you may be leaving money on the table.

    TMV is the average price that a car sells for in your region. And it is adjusted for options, the car's color and incentives. TMV figures are based on the actual sales of other cars of its kind in your area. The figure is then adjusted further for accuracy using sophisticated calculations designed by mathematicians at Edmunds.com.

    Source: http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/edmun
    d...

  • knowledgepower 05/13/11 6:54 pm PST

    There's not much room other than invoice on the HHR that you may think. If there is a rebate take that with invoice and run with it. There's no huge dealer holdback and mega incentives on this vehicle other than rebate. Asking for too much on an invoice deal can get you no deal. I've dealt with many customers other than fleet buyers who thought that there was all this money under invoice other than the rebate and ended up with no deal. Holdback may be a few hundred dollars and not worth the negotiation. These statements are not a contradiction of anything posted just a little advice from one who's been there. Like the Gambler says you have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. If you are offered invoice and rebate fold don't hold and take the deal. You're being offered the cake just don't eat it intil you've left the dealership.

  • Stever@Edmunds 05/13/11 8:07 pm PST

    I'd still start at TMV. It's just a business transaction and if the dealer says no, you can bump up the offer or shop somewhere else. Edmunds doesn't make TMV numbers up out of thin air, and there's no reason to pay more than the last buyer did.

    You don't have to negotiate (or even mention) holdback or spiffs. Many times the salespeople don't know what kind of incentives the owner has gotten from the manufacturer to move cars. All you have to do is negotiate the bottom line number you want to pay for the car.

    I didn't check Kelley since they are usually high anyway, but it's interesting to note that our competitor True Car also reports the "good price" on a 2011 HHR is well below invoice.

  • knowledgepower 05/14/11 9:02 am PST

    I absolutely agree with steve in starting the negotiation at TMV which is great, my previous comment was to advise you in not haggling too much on a good deal. Dealers sometimes do have dealer cash on hard to move vehicles to get rid of them and the HHR LT has up to $4,000 dealer cash on it and the LS has a $3,500 rebate on it. Now you definitely know to hold them or fold them.

  • Stever@Edmunds 05/14/11 9:19 am PST

    It's also interesting to note that there is a $4,000 Manufacturer to Customer rebate as well as a $4,000 Manufacturer to Dealer, at least for my zip code. Sounds like there's as much as $8,000 off the hood.

    So TMV may still be too high. :-)

    Source: 

  • kazz63758 05/15/11 8:16 am PST

    Thanks to everyone who answered. But Edmunds TMV is just plain wrong in this case. At least in the Southeast Missouri/Southern Illinois region. To the tune of about $3000. I have visited or phoned four dealerships to try and negotiate for a 2011 HHR using the TMV.

    One dealership actually laughed at me. Another said that I should contact Edmunds and have them find a car at that price for me. The other two just politely said that we wouldn't be able to deal.

    So, I'm going to start over next week using the invoice price as my general guide and just ignore the TMV. (although I DO wonder where they came up with their values)

    Thanks again all.

  • Stever@Edmunds 05/15/11 8:44 am PST

    You did the right thing by walking out. I suggest using the Dealer Quote service under the New Cars tab and save some gas by shopping online and expand your search area a bit.

    And if one of the first 4 dealers get hungry enough, they'll call you back.

    How to Use TMV

    Edmunds' Vehicle Pricing Differs from KBB or NADA

    Dealer Won't Accept True Market Value (TMV)

  • kazz63758 05/15/11 7:51 pm PST

    Steve,

    I appreciate your response, support, and the links. But, to be honest, I simply do not believe the price data that Edmunds TMV is reporting. Not with the responses I recieved from dealers while trying to use it. None seemed to feel we were close enough to even attempt to deal with me. And this was as a straight purchase without a trade in.

    I live in a city with a population of about 35,000 in Missouri. I went to my local dealer, another in the region who advertises heavily as a "deal maker" and then thought maybe it was a small town thing and went to St. Louis to visit some larger volume dealerships. It was a humbling experience....

  • Stever@Edmunds 05/15/11 8:31 pm PST

    Well, you could ask them what they think of truecar.com's number.

    And if you get a quote from Memphis or Little Rock or Kansas City that's close to TMV, you could offer the local dealers a chance to price match.

    I'm full of links (full of opinions too, when it's not my money, lol). Here's another one that says the price trend for HHRs is going down. Maybe your corner of Missouri didn't get that memo from us either. :-)

    True Market Value®: Predicted Price Trends

    If you don't have to have a car right away, I think I'd leave my contact info with a couple of dealers and tell them when they get a bit hungrier to give you a call. Meanwhile, Ford makes some nice cars too.

    It is interesting to note that we only show 17 2011 HRRs within 200 miles of St. Louis.

    Try a price check with Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg Idaho just for grins too. If they are way high, then maybe we do have a problem with our numbers.

  • markemmanuel 05/17/11 1:21 am PST

    I've been shopping and using Edmund's TMV attempting to get a good deal on a vehicle. I've used the TMV as a starting point for me and then bring the dealer's price down from TMV. I contacted dealerships through the internet and over the phone. They laughed, were upset, or simply didn't reply. Lowballing them makes them think you're not serious and it doesn't create much goodwill.

    I believe the TMV is significantly lower because the HHR currently has a manufacturer to dealer incentive which brings the reported purchase price down. While talking to the dealership I'm working with, I discovered I am taxed for the price that includes the manurfacturer to dealer incentives since it is not a rebate on a purchased product like the loyalty rebate I will be receiving or my GM Card rewards.

    At this point, many of the dealerships are trying to sell the car to add volume to their numbers so they can get spiffs from GM. Like a previous posting stated, they haven't been selling like well until the past few weeks. They've been selling through them because of the gas prices and incentives.

    The deal I have in the works is:
    (invoice price - manufacturer to dealer incentive) - dealer holdback - advertising fees - loyalty rewards = the final cost to me not including taxes, IL doc fees, and financing. It's not a GREAT deal but it's a good deal. They need to stay in business and I need a decent car.

    Tomorrow, I'm finalizing the deal because they have to do a dealer trade since they have to do a dealer trade and I was stupid enough not to get it all in writing.

    On a better day, I would have spent a bit more time trying to get more accessories and try to figure out if there was more money somewhere. For example, dealers take a loan out at banks or with GM to purchase the cars on their lot. The longer it sits there, the less opportunity to make money. You might make a case for them to sell it for lower so they can save on a small amount of interest. Again, I wasn't able to use this in negotiations because the vehicle is not on the lot.

    Also, think about where you're getting your financing if you're not paying cash. You can save a lot of money shopping around for money. My family got a rate of 2.70% at our credit union which is about .5% lower than the big banks and vibes with my view of not supporting 'banks too big to fail.' You can negotiate the financing with the F&I person because they make money there too. He or she might reduce your rate another .5% to 2%. My mom did this on her Honda CR-V.

    I hope this helps. Good luck!

    --Mark--

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